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 [ADV] Standard Cacturne

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TM1337FalconPunch
Title: Level 36 Tropius
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PostSubject: [ADV] Standard Cacturne   August 29th 2012, 10:27 pm

lol I'm clogging up this forum with sets from a practically dead tier

I'm posting this for 2 reasons- first reason is simply because I made it and it's good. Ridiculously good, infact. If in doubt, take a trip to CALLOUS' channel, he has a bunch of games where this thing takes the game by itself. The second reason is that its getting reasonably popular, yet there isn't an analysis for it anywhere, even on smogon, and I feel its been around long enough and been successful enough to let the cat out of the bag, so to speak.

Here it is-



Cacturne (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 SAtk / 40 SDef / 216 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Needle Arm/ Spikes
- Hidden Power [Dark]
- Substitute
- Leech Seed

So why does this work? Cacturne is the only SubSeeder in Adv to be immune to Sand Stream, a near omnipresent effect in the metagame, and Leech Seed in conjunction with sand damage not only make for a mean combo of residual damage, but the immunity to sand on your side means no matter what you will gain Lefties and Seed at the end of the turn, which will almost always cancel out the HP loss from any Sub you make.
Another thing Cacturne has going for it is that it flat out walls most variants of Celebi (which is by and large the most common grass in the tier and thus the only thing likely stopping you from Seeding), with only CM + Hidden Power variants able to best it. HP Dark deals 50-61% to Celebi, and since Sand Stream will be up (if you're not using TTar with Cacturne then what are you doing) you can basically count their Celebi as dead weight, even if they try and Recover stall you 99% of the time you still win, pending no crit and repeated bs damage rolls (and they'd have to be REALLY bad) The third draw of Cacturne is perhaps the most obvious, but probably the least relevant, and thats the Sand Veil evasion boost. Its really handy for helping you out of the occasional end-game sticky situations, as well as making your SubSeed stall much more effective, but its not necessary to make Cacturne as viable as it is. Its just a nice perk.

To explain the set- Substitute and Leech Seed are the core of the set. HP Dark is essential for checking Celebi, otherwise you would just end up with a stalemate in so many matches. It also gives a STAB move with good neutral coverage (Fighting and Bug types are hard to come across in Adv, so basically Steels are the main Dark resists). The final move is the only flexible one, but Needle Arm is generally the best choice. Needle Arm gives you something to hit Tyranitar and bulky Waters with, which turns out to be pretty important, and it also has a flinch chance which, when stacked on top of Sand Veil, can make you pretty damn obnoxious. Spikes is there if you want to make Cacturne into some residual damage master and it makes for an even greater last poke, but there tend to be better choices for a Spiker. Another option I didn't list is Focus Punch, which has great synergy with the set, however it requires a different EV spread and I cba to list it. Plus, it relies on you having a Sub up and makes you much less threatening without one.
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ZodiaK
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PostSubject: Re: [ADV] Standard Cacturne   August 30th 2012, 5:16 am

Couldn't you run SubSeed with Focus Punch, naturally switch spA ev's to Att and run maybe like HP Ghost over HP Dark as I assume that gives you great coverage and you can subseed the rest? Unless there's a better move like HP Bug, Poison or Flying or idk.

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TM1337FalconPunch
Title: Level 36 Tropius
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PostSubject: Re: [ADV] Standard Cacturne   August 30th 2012, 11:41 am

ZodiaK wrote:
Couldn't you run SubSeed with Focus Punch, naturally switch spA ev's to Att and run maybe like HP Ghost over HP Dark as I assume that gives you great coverage and you can subseed the rest? Unless there's a better move like HP Bug, Poison or Flying or idk.
I did say Focus Punch was an option, but the problem is that by switching up EVs to accommodate for it you weaken HP Dark and/or probably lower your speed. HP Dark is an absolute must because practically all Celebi run Def EVs and no Sp. Def, which, backed with STAB, makes HP Dark hit much, much harder than HP Ghost, and if you used HP Bug it not only still deals less damage than HP Dark to most Celebi, but you miss out on having something to threaten Gengar, which is pretty important. Needle Arm grants good enough coverage and is threatening even without the Sub, which is crucial if, for example you want to switch in and force out Swampert, or their last poke is a weakened Tyranitar (relying on Sand Veil for a free sub or punch isn't the most reliable option).

Focus Punch is totally usable and I originally made the set with Focus Punch in mind, seeing it as a niche Breloom for TSS teams. However, since then, its garnered popularity and the set has changed to reflect what most people have been using and what has been on the whole most successful. I do believe Focus Punch is the second most viable move for that first slot but it just requires a spread change. Admittedly, my EVs do not reflect everyone elses EVs since people have been making their own- its a brand new set in a decade old metagame, people are going to experiment- but I believe these are the best, and I've been through a fair few spreads.
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PostSubject: Re: [ADV] Standard Cacturne   August 30th 2012, 3:03 pm

shit i love this thing
must
use
nao

gj btw
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PostSubject: Re: [ADV] Standard Cacturne   August 31st 2012, 9:11 pm

omg great set gj
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PostSubject: Re: [ADV] Standard Cacturne   September 6th 2012, 11:13 pm

I still think an adamant subseed focus punch/HP ghost would be more effecient. I mean by default fight/ghost hits everything, and then you can subseed anything to death that annoys it.

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PostSubject: Re: [ADV] Standard Cacturne   September 7th 2012, 12:47 am

ZodiaK wrote:
I still think an adamant subseed focus punch/HP ghost would be more effecient. I mean by default fight/ghost hits everything, and then you can subseed anything to death that annoys it.
It doesn't break Celebi though. That's the point. With HP Ghost it can just Recover stall you, even through crits. Fighting/Ghost hits everything, but its not hard enough without STAB. I'd use a STABless combo if Cacturne is a stally mon, but its a stallbreaker, offensive to the core. The only thing that is really going to stop your SubSeed is Celebi- its pretty much the only Grass type you'll see. Sceptile, Breloom and Venusaur are the only others, which are really rare, and no matter what moveset you run you should really just hit them as they take your sub and cut your losses. Cacturne needs its Dark STAB to even hope to function as well as it does. Cacturne thrives on the fact that it can stall out almost anything vulnerable to sand, and hit hard the things that are immune or not unduly bothered by it. A specially offensive route is therefore much, much more effective in most scenarios.

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PostSubject: Re: [ADV] Standard Cacturne   Today at 8:51 pm

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